Johanneum Comma and Clement of Alexandria - Revision history

Nick: Redirecting to Johannine Comma and Clement of Alexandria

2020-05-13T08:08:49Z

Redirecting to Johannine Comma and Clement of Alexandria

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:08, 13 May 2020
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	~~''This page is a branch of a lager article, see [[Johanneum Comma]]''~~		#REDIRECT [[Johannine Comma and Clement of Alexandria]]

	~~[[image:Clement_alexandrin.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria]]~~
	[[image:Clement_1_John_5.7.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria with allusions to the Comma Johanneum [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=P2nWxN5XVfYC&pg=PA46&dq=%22before+the+Father+and+the+Son+and+the+Holy+Spirit;+before+whom%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1b-btu_oAhUt63MBHQUjBCoQ6AEIMDAB#~~v=onepage&q&f=false].]]~~
	~~There are two main sections of Clement's work that are discussed concerning the Johanneum Comma, ''~~[~~http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Greek/testi/Clemens/Eclogae_propheticae.html Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13]'' and~~ [~~https://books.google.com/books?id=EKwCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA54 ''A new plea for the authenticity of the text of the three heavenly witnesses'' p 54-55 (1867)].~~

	~~== Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13 ==~~
	~~[[Clement of Alexandria]] (c. [[200 AD\|200]]) in ''[http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Greek/testi/Clemens/Eclogae_propheticae.html Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13]'':~~
	:Every promise is valid before two or '''<u>three witnesses</u>''', before '''<u>the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit</u>'''; before whom, '''<u>as witnesses</u>''' and helpers, what are called the commandments ought to be kept. <small>''Eclogae propheticae 13.1''[https://books.google.com/books?id=GX4UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277 Ben David, Monthly Review, 1826 p. 277)]</small>

	~~In Greek comparison to the text of Beza's 1598:~~

	:Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ '''<u>τριῶν</u>''' '''<u>μαρτύρων</u>''', ἐπὶ '''<u>πατρὸς</u>''' καὶ '''<u>υἱοῦ</u>''' '''<u>καὶ ἁγίου πνεύματος</u>''', ἐφ᾿ ὧν <u>μαρτύρων</u> [https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0555.tlg005.opp-grc1:13/?highlight](Clement)

	:ὅτι '''<u>τρεῖς</u>''' εἰσιν οἱ '''<u>μαρτυροῦντες</u>''' εν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ '''<u>πατήρ</u>''', ὁ '''<u>λόγος</u>''', '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τὸ '''<u>ἅγιον Πνεῦμα</u>'''· (Beza)

	With some of the non highlighted words removed, a comparison is clearer. Note, Logos and Uios are placed side by side as synonymous here. The Π in Πνεῦμα was also made small, for better comparison:
	~~{\|border=1 cellpadding=5 style="text-align:left; border-collapse: collapse;~~
	\|-
	~~!\|Clement~~
	~~!\|Beza 1598~~
	\|-
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|τριῶν~~
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|τρεῖς~~
	\|-
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|μαρτύρων~~
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|μαρτυροῦντες~~
	\|-
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|πατρὸς~~
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|πατήρ~~
	\|-
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|υἱοῦ~~
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|λόγος~~
	\|-
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|καὶ~~
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|καὶ~~
	\|-
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|ἁγίου~~
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|ἅγιον~~
	\|-
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|πνεύματος~~
	~~\|valign=top align=left\|πνεῦμα~~
	\|-
	\|}

	~~This is seen by some such as [[Johann Albrecht Bengel\|Bengel]], [[John Gill]], Ben David, and Thomas Burgess, as allusion evidence that Clement was familiar with the verse.~~

	~~We can also compare this to [[Matthew 28:19]], in which it is difficult not to see the similarities:~~

	~~:'''<u>πατρὸς καὶ</u>''' ...... '''<u>υἱοῦ</u>''' '''<u>καὶ</u>''' ...... '''<u>ἁγίου πνεύματος</u>''' (Clement)~~
	~~:'''<u>Πατρὸς καὶ</u>''' τοῦ '''<u>Υἱοῦ</u>''' '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τοῦ '''<u>Ἁγίου Πνεύματος</u>''' (Beza)~~
	~~:'''<u>πατήρ</u>''', ........ ὁ '''<u>λόγος</u>''', '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τὸ '''<u>ἅγιον Πνεῦμα</u>'''· (Beza - 1 John 5:7)~~

	But, this does not explain why Clement spoke of witnesses twice, in a verse with a clear reference to the Father, Son, and Spirit, with μαρτύρων appearing twice. Grantley Mcdonald says in his article ''[https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/16486/Dissertation%20McDonald%20postprint.pdf?sequence=1 Raising the ghost of Arius: Erasmus, the Johannine Comma and ~~Religious Difference in Early Modern Europe]''~~
	:For example, in an attempt to show that the Greek Fathers knew and quoted the comma, Forster cites such passages as the following from a sermon on the Trinity by John of Chrysostom (PG 48:1087), in which “the text of the Heavenly Witnesses [72] stands out”: “Βλέπε γάρ μοι τὰς μαρτυρίας τῆς ἁγίας καὶ ὁμοουσίου Τριάδος, καὶ σέβου ταύτην ὀρθῶς, ἵνα μὴ ἀπόλῃ.” Forster claims that the word μαρτυρία in proximity of a mention of the Trinity must refer to the comma (“The idea exists solely in 1 John v. 7”), but in fact the word μαρτυρία here means nothing more than “Scriptural witnesses.” This sentence merely serves to introduce a list of Scriptural passages, including several from the Hebrew bible, in which Chrysostom sees evidence of the Trinity. Other passages adduced by Forster, such as the following from the Eclogæ of ps.-Clement of Alexandria (PG 9:704), cit. Forster, 74, are barely more convincing: “Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ τριῶν μαρτύρων, ἐπὶ πατρὸς καὶ υἱοῦ καὶ ἁγίου πνεύματος, ἐφ᾽ ὧν μαρτύρων καὶ βοηθῶν αἱ ἐντολαὶ λεγόμεναι φυλάσσεσθαι ὀφείλουσιν.”

	~~Grantley criticizes the incredible work of Forster by simply contesting two references, claiming Forster makes a fool of himself in doing so.~~

	~~==Fragments of Clemens Alexandrius==~~
	Critics of the Comma claim that is absent from an extant fragment of Clement through [[Cassiodorus]] (6th century), with homily style verse references from 1 John, including verse [[1 John 5:6]] and [[1 John 5:8]] without verse 7, the heavenly witnesses.

	:He says, "This is He who came by water and blood"; and again, - For there are three that bear witness, the spirit, which is life, and the water, which is regeneration and faith, and the blood, which is knowledge; "and these three are one. For in the Saviour are those saving virtues, and life itself exists in His own Son."<small>[http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/clement-fragments.html "Fragments of Clemens Alexandrius"], translated by Rev. William Wilson, section 3.</small>

	Charles Forster in [https://books.google.com/books?id=EKwCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA54 ''A new plea for the authenticity of the text of the three heavenly witnesses'' p 54-55 (1867)] notes that the quote of verse 6 is partial, bypassing phrases in verse 6 as well as verse 7. And that Clement's "words ''et iterum'' clearly mark the interpolation of other topics and intervening text, between the two quotations". ''Et iterum'' is "and again" in the English translation.

	~~According to the [[UBS]] textual apparatus, support for this shorter reading is found in Clement of Alexandria (before 215).~~
	~~==See Also==~~
	* [[Johanneum Comma]]
	* [[Clement of Alexandria]]
	~~{{Donate}}~~

Nick at 21:52, 23 April 2020

2020-04-23T21:52:26Z

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			''This page is a branch of a lager article, see [[Johanneum Comma]]''

	[[image:Clement_alexandrin.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria]]		[[image:Clement_alexandrin.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria]]
	[[image:Clement_1_John_5.7.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria with allusions to the Comma Johanneum [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=P2nWxN5XVfYC&pg=PA46&dq=%22before+the+Father+and+the+Son+and+the+Holy+Spirit;+before+whom%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1b-btu_oAhUt63MBHQUjBCoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false].]]		[[image:Clement_1_John_5.7.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria with allusions to the Comma Johanneum [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=P2nWxN5XVfYC&pg=PA46&dq=%22before+the+Father+and+the+Son+and+the+Holy+Spirit;+before+whom%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1b-btu_oAhUt63MBHQUjBCoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false].]]

Nick at 09:06, 23 April 2020

2020-04-23T09:06:17Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:06, 23 April 2020
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	[[image:Clement_alexandrin.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria]]		[[image:Clement_alexandrin.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria]]
	[[image:Clement_1_John_5.7.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria with allusions to the Comma Johanneum [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=P2nWxN5XVfYC&pg=PA46&dq=%22before+the+Father+and+the+Son+and+the+Holy+Spirit;+before+whom%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1b-btu_oAhUt63MBHQUjBCoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false].]]		[[image:Clement_1_John_5.7.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria with allusions to the Comma Johanneum [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=P2nWxN5XVfYC&pg=PA46&dq=%22before+the+Father+and+the+Son+and+the+Holy+Spirit;+before+whom%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1b-btu_oAhUt63MBHQUjBCoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false].]]
			There are two main sections of Clement's work that are discussed concerning the Johanneum Comma, ''[http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Greek/testi/Clemens/Eclogae_propheticae.html Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13]'' and [https://books.google.com/books?id=EKwCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA54 ''A new plea for the authenticity of the text of the three heavenly witnesses'' p 54-55 (1867)].

	== Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13 ==		== Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13 ==
	~~Another reference that is studied is from~~ [[Clement of Alexandria]] (c. [[200 AD\|200]]) in ''[http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Greek/testi/Clemens/Eclogae_propheticae.html Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13]'':		[[Clement of Alexandria]] (c. [[200 AD\|200]]) in ''[http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Greek/testi/Clemens/Eclogae_propheticae.html Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13]'':
	:Every promise is valid before two or '''<u>three witnesses</u>''', before '''<u>the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit</u>'''; before whom, '''<u>as witnesses</u>''' and helpers, what are called the commandments ought to be kept. <small>''Eclogae propheticae 13.1''[https://books.google.com/books?id=GX4UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277 Ben David, Monthly Review, 1826 p. 277)]</small>		:Every promise is valid before two or '''<u>three witnesses</u>''', before '''<u>the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit</u>'''; before whom, '''<u>as witnesses</u>''' and helpers, what are called the commandments ought to be kept. <small>''Eclogae propheticae 13.1''[https://books.google.com/books?id=GX4UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277 Ben David, Monthly Review, 1826 p. 277)]</small>

Nick at 09:04, 23 April 2020

2020-04-23T09:04:17Z

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	But, this does not explain why Clement spoke of witnesses twice, in a verse with a clear reference to the Father, Son, and Spirit, with μαρτύρων appearing twice. Grantley Mcdonald says in his article ''[https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/16486/Dissertation%20McDonald%20postprint.pdf?sequence=1 Raising the ghost of Arius: Erasmus, the Johannine Comma and Religious Difference in Early Modern Europe]''		But, this does not explain why Clement spoke of witnesses twice, in a verse with a clear reference to the Father, Son, and Spirit, with μαρτύρων appearing twice. Grantley Mcdonald says in his article ''[https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/16486/Dissertation%20McDonald%20postprint.pdf?sequence=1 Raising the ghost of Arius: Erasmus, the Johannine Comma and Religious Difference in Early Modern Europe]''
	:For example, in an attempt to show that the Greek Fathers knew and quoted the comma, Forster cites such passages as the following from a sermon on the Trinity by John of Chrysostom (PG 48:1087), in which “the text of the Heavenly Witnesses [72] stands out”: “Βλέπε γάρ μοι τὰς μαρτυρίας τῆς ἁγίας καὶ ὁμοουσίου Τριάδος, καὶ σέβου ταύτην ὀρθῶς, ἵνα μὴ ἀπόλῃ.” Forster claims that the word μαρτυρία in proximity of a mention of the Trinity must refer to the comma (“The idea exists solely in 1 John v. 7”), but in fact the word μαρτυρία here means nothing more than “Scriptural witnesses.” This sentence merely serves to introduce a list of Scriptural passages, including several from the Hebrew bible, in which Chrysostom sees evidence of the Trinity. Other passages adduced by Forster, such as the following from the Eclogæ of ps.-Clement of Alexandria (PG 9:704), cit. Forster, 74, are barely more convincing: “Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ τριῶν μαρτύρων, ἐπὶ πατρὸς καὶ υἱοῦ καὶ ἁγίου πνεύματος, ἐφ᾽ ὧν μαρτύρων καὶ βοηθῶν αἱ ἐντολαὶ λεγόμεναι φυλάσσεσθαι ὀφείλουσιν.”		:For example, in an attempt to show that the Greek Fathers knew and quoted the comma, Forster cites such passages as the following from a sermon on the Trinity by John of Chrysostom (PG 48:1087), in which “the text of the Heavenly Witnesses [72] stands out”: “Βλέπε γάρ μοι τὰς μαρτυρίας τῆς ἁγίας καὶ ὁμοουσίου Τριάδος, καὶ σέβου ταύτην ὀρθῶς, ἵνα μὴ ἀπόλῃ.” Forster claims that the word μαρτυρία in proximity of a mention of the Trinity must refer to the comma (“The idea exists solely in 1 John v. 7”), but in fact the word μαρτυρία here means nothing more than “Scriptural witnesses.” This sentence merely serves to introduce a list of Scriptural passages, including several from the Hebrew bible, in which Chrysostom sees evidence of the Trinity. Other passages adduced by Forster, such as the following from the Eclogæ of ps.-Clement of Alexandria (PG 9:704), cit. Forster, 74, are barely more convincing: “Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ τριῶν μαρτύρων, ἐπὶ πατρὸς καὶ υἱοῦ καὶ ἁγίου πνεύματος, ἐφ᾽ ὧν μαρτύρων καὶ βοηθῶν αἱ ἐντολαὶ λεγόμεναι φυλάσσεσθαι ὀφείλουσιν.”

			Grantley criticizes the incredible work of Forster by simply contesting two references, claiming Forster makes a fool of himself in doing so.

	==Fragments of Clemens Alexandrius==		==Fragments of Clemens Alexandrius==

Nick at 08:36, 23 April 2020

2020-04-23T08:36:44Z

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	[[image:Clement_alexandrin.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria]]		[[image:Clement_alexandrin.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria]]
	[[image:Clement_1_John_5.7.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria with allusions to the Comma Johanneum [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=P2nWxN5XVfYC&pg=PA46&dq=%22before+the+Father+and+the+Son+and+the+Holy+Spirit;+before+whom%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1b-btu_oAhUt63MBHQUjBCoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false].]]		[[image:Clement_1_John_5.7.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria with allusions to the Comma Johanneum [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=P2nWxN5XVfYC&pg=PA46&dq=%22before+the+Father+and+the+Son+and+the+Holy+Spirit;+before+whom%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1b-btu_oAhUt63MBHQUjBCoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false].]]
			== Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13 ==
	Another reference that is studied is from [[Clement of Alexandria]] (c. [[200 AD\|200]]) in ''[http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Greek/testi/Clemens/Eclogae_propheticae.html Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13]'':		Another reference that is studied is from [[Clement of Alexandria]] (c. [[200 AD\|200]]) in ''[http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Greek/testi/Clemens/Eclogae_propheticae.html Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13]'':
	:Every promise is valid before two or '''<u>three witnesses</u>''', before '''<u>the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit</u>'''; before whom, '''<u>as witnesses</u>''' and helpers, what are called the commandments ought to be kept. <small>''Eclogae propheticae 13.1''[https://books.google.com/books?id=GX4UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277 Ben David, Monthly Review, 1826 p. 277)]</small>		:Every promise is valid before two or '''<u>three witnesses</u>''', before '''<u>the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit</u>'''; before whom, '''<u>as witnesses</u>''' and helpers, what are called the commandments ought to be kept. <small>''Eclogae propheticae 13.1''[https://books.google.com/books?id=GX4UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277 Ben David, Monthly Review, 1826 p. 277)]</small>
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	:For example, in an attempt to show that the Greek Fathers knew and quoted the comma, Forster cites such passages as the following from a sermon on the Trinity by John of Chrysostom (PG 48:1087), in which “the text of the Heavenly Witnesses [72] stands out”: “Βλέπε γάρ μοι τὰς μαρτυρίας τῆς ἁγίας καὶ ὁμοουσίου Τριάδος, καὶ σέβου ταύτην ὀρθῶς, ἵνα μὴ ἀπόλῃ.” Forster claims that the word μαρτυρία in proximity of a mention of the Trinity must refer to the comma (“The idea exists solely in 1 John v. 7”), but in fact the word μαρτυρία here means nothing more than “Scriptural witnesses.” This sentence merely serves to introduce a list of Scriptural passages, including several from the Hebrew bible, in which Chrysostom sees evidence of the Trinity. Other passages adduced by Forster, such as the following from the Eclogæ of ps.-Clement of Alexandria (PG 9:704), cit. Forster, 74, are barely more convincing: “Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ τριῶν μαρτύρων, ἐπὶ πατρὸς καὶ υἱοῦ καὶ ἁγίου πνεύματος, ἐφ᾽ ὧν μαρτύρων καὶ βοηθῶν αἱ ἐντολαὶ λεγόμεναι φυλάσσεσθαι ὀφείλουσιν.”		:For example, in an attempt to show that the Greek Fathers knew and quoted the comma, Forster cites such passages as the following from a sermon on the Trinity by John of Chrysostom (PG 48:1087), in which “the text of the Heavenly Witnesses [72] stands out”: “Βλέπε γάρ μοι τὰς μαρτυρίας τῆς ἁγίας καὶ ὁμοουσίου Τριάδος, καὶ σέβου ταύτην ὀρθῶς, ἵνα μὴ ἀπόλῃ.” Forster claims that the word μαρτυρία in proximity of a mention of the Trinity must refer to the comma (“The idea exists solely in 1 John v. 7”), but in fact the word μαρτυρία here means nothing more than “Scriptural witnesses.” This sentence merely serves to introduce a list of Scriptural passages, including several from the Hebrew bible, in which Chrysostom sees evidence of the Trinity. Other passages adduced by Forster, such as the following from the Eclogæ of ps.-Clement of Alexandria (PG 9:704), cit. Forster, 74, are barely more convincing: “Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ τριῶν μαρτύρων, ἐπὶ πατρὸς καὶ υἱοῦ καὶ ἁγίου πνεύματος, ἐφ᾽ ὧν μαρτύρων καὶ βοηθῶν αἱ ἐντολαὶ λεγόμεναι φυλάσσεσθαι ὀφείλουσιν.”

			==Fragments of Clemens Alexandrius==
	Critics of the Comma claim that is absent from an extant fragment of Clement through [[Cassiodorus]] (6th century), with homily style verse references from 1 John, including verse [[1 John 5:6]] and [[1 John 5:8]] without verse 7, the heavenly witnesses.		Critics of the Comma claim that is absent from an extant fragment of Clement through [[Cassiodorus]] (6th century), with homily style verse references from 1 John, including verse [[1 John 5:6]] and [[1 John 5:8]] without verse 7, the heavenly witnesses.

Nick at 08:33, 23 April 2020

2020-04-23T08:33:08Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:33, 23 April 2020
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	:'''<u>πατήρ</u>''', ........ ὁ '''<u>λόγος</u>''', '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τὸ '''<u>ἅγιον Πνεῦμα</u>'''· (Beza - 1 John 5:7)		:'''<u>πατήρ</u>''', ........ ὁ '''<u>λόγος</u>''', '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τὸ '''<u>ἅγιον Πνεῦμα</u>'''· (Beza - 1 John 5:7)

	But, this does not explain why Clement spoke of witnesses twice, in a verse with a clear reference to the Father, Son, and Spirit, with μαρτύρων appearing twice.		But, this does not explain why Clement spoke of witnesses twice, in a verse with a clear reference to the Father, Son, and Spirit, with μαρτύρων appearing twice. Grantley Mcdonald says in his article ''[https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/16486/Dissertation%20McDonald%20postprint.pdf?sequence=1 Raising the ghost of Arius: Erasmus, the Johannine Comma and Religious Difference in Early Modern Europe]''
			:For example, in an attempt to show that the Greek Fathers knew and quoted the comma, Forster cites such passages as the following from a sermon on the Trinity by John of Chrysostom (PG 48:1087), in which “the text of the Heavenly Witnesses [72] stands out”: “Βλέπε γάρ μοι τὰς μαρτυρίας τῆς ἁγίας καὶ ὁμοουσίου Τριάδος, καὶ σέβου ταύτην ὀρθῶς, ἵνα μὴ ἀπόλῃ.” Forster claims that the word μαρτυρία in proximity of a mention of the Trinity must refer to the comma (“The idea exists solely in 1 John v. 7”), but in fact the word μαρτυρία here means nothing more than “Scriptural witnesses.” This sentence merely serves to introduce a list of Scriptural passages, including several from the Hebrew bible, in which Chrysostom sees evidence of the Trinity. Other passages adduced by Forster, such as the following from the Eclogæ of ps.-Clement of Alexandria (PG 9:704), cit. Forster, 74, are barely more convincing: “Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ τριῶν μαρτύρων, ἐπὶ πατρὸς καὶ υἱοῦ καὶ ἁγίου πνεύματος, ἐφ᾽ ὧν μαρτύρων καὶ βοηθῶν αἱ ἐντολαὶ λεγόμεναι φυλάσσεσθαι ὀφείλουσιν.”

	Critics of the Comma claim that is absent from an extant fragment of Clement through [[Cassiodorus]] (6th century), with homily style verse references from 1 John, including verse [[1 John 5:6]] and [[1 John 5:8]] without verse 7, the heavenly witnesses.		Critics of the Comma claim that is absent from an extant fragment of Clement through [[Cassiodorus]] (6th century), with homily style verse references from 1 John, including verse [[1 John 5:6]] and [[1 John 5:8]] without verse 7, the heavenly witnesses.

Nick at 08:21, 23 April 2020

2020-04-23T08:21:59Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:21, 23 April 2020
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	[[image:Clement_alexandrin.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria]]		[[image:Clement_alexandrin.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria]]
	[[image:Clement_1_John_5.7.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria with allusions to the Comma Johanneum [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=P2nWxN5XVfYC&pg=PA46&dq=%22before+the+Father+and+the+Son+and+the+Holy+Spirit;+before+whom%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1b-btu_oAhUt63MBHQUjBCoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false].]]		[[image:Clement_1_John_5.7.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria with allusions to the Comma Johanneum [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=P2nWxN5XVfYC&pg=PA46&dq=%22before+the+Father+and+the+Son+and+the+Holy+Spirit;+before+whom%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1b-btu_oAhUt63MBHQUjBCoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false].]]
	Another reference that is studied is from [[Clement of Alexandria]] (c. [[200 AD\|200]]) in ''[http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Greek/testi/Clemens/Eclogae_propheticae.html ~~Prophetic Extracts~~]'':		Another reference that is studied is from [[Clement of Alexandria]] (c. [[200 AD\|200]]) in ''[http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Greek/testi/Clemens/Eclogae_propheticae.html Eclogae propheticae Chapter 13]'':
	:Every promise is valid before two or '''<u>three witnesses</u>''', before '''<u>the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit</u>'''; before whom, '''<u>as witnesses</u>''' and helpers, what are called the commandments ought to be kept. <small>''Eclogae propheticae 13.1''[https://books.google.com/books?id=GX4UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277 Ben David, Monthly Review, 1826 p. 277)]</small>		:Every promise is valid before two or '''<u>three witnesses</u>''', before '''<u>the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit</u>'''; before whom, '''<u>as witnesses</u>''' and helpers, what are called the commandments ought to be kept. <small>''Eclogae propheticae 13.1''[https://books.google.com/books?id=GX4UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277 Ben David, Monthly Review, 1826 p. 277)]</small>

	In Greek comparison to the text of Beza's 1598:		In Greek comparison to the text of Beza's 1598:

	:Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ '''<u>τριῶν</u>''' '''<u>μαρτύρων</u>''', ἐπὶ '''<u>πατρὸς</u>''' καὶ '''<u>υἱοῦ</u>''' '''<u>καὶ ἁγίου πνεύματος</u>''', ἐφ᾿ ὧν <u>μαρτύρων</u> [[https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0555.tlg005.opp-grc1:13/?highlight](Clement)		:Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ '''<u>τριῶν</u>''' '''<u>μαρτύρων</u>''', ἐπὶ '''<u>πατρὸς</u>''' καὶ '''<u>υἱοῦ</u>''' '''<u>καὶ ἁγίου πνεύματος</u>''', ἐφ᾿ ὧν <u>μαρτύρων</u> [https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0555.tlg005.opp-grc1:13/?highlight](Clement)

	:ὅτι '''<u>τρεῖς</u>''' εἰσιν οἱ '''<u>μαρτυροῦντες</u>''' εν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ '''<u>πατήρ</u>''', ὁ '''<u>λόγος</u>''', '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τὸ '''<u>ἅγιον Πνεῦμα</u>'''· (Beza)		:ὅτι '''<u>τρεῖς</u>''' εἰσιν οἱ '''<u>μαρτυροῦντες</u>''' εν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ '''<u>πατήρ</u>''', ὁ '''<u>λόγος</u>''', '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τὸ '''<u>ἅγιον Πνεῦμα</u>'''· (Beza)
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	Charles Forster in [https://books.google.com/books?id=EKwCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA54 ''A new plea for the authenticity of the text of the three heavenly witnesses'' p 54-55 (1867)] notes that the quote of verse 6 is partial, bypassing phrases in verse 6 as well as verse 7. And that Clement's "words ''et iterum'' clearly mark the interpolation of other topics and intervening text, between the two quotations". ''Et iterum'' is "and again" in the English translation.		Charles Forster in [https://books.google.com/books?id=EKwCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA54 ''A new plea for the authenticity of the text of the three heavenly witnesses'' p 54-55 (1867)] notes that the quote of verse 6 is partial, bypassing phrases in verse 6 as well as verse 7. And that Clement's "words ''et iterum'' clearly mark the interpolation of other topics and intervening text, between the two quotations". ''Et iterum'' is "and again" in the English translation.

	According to the UBS textual apparatus, support for this shorter reading is found in Clement of Alexandria (before 215).		According to the [[UBS]] textual apparatus, support for this shorter reading is found in Clement of Alexandria (before 215).

	==See Also==		==See Also==
	* [[Johanneum Comma]]		* [[Johanneum Comma]]
	* [[Clement of Alexandria]]		* [[Clement of Alexandria]]
	{{Donate}}		{{Donate}}

Nick at 08:15, 23 April 2020

2020-04-23T08:15:57Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:15, 23 April 2020
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	In Greek comparison to the text of Beza's 1598:		In Greek comparison to the text of Beza's 1598:

	:Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ '''<u>τριῶν</u>''' '''<u>μαρτύρων</u>''', ἐπὶ '''<u>πατρὸς</u>''' καὶ '''<u>υἱοῦ</u>''' '''<u>καὶ ἁγίου πνεύματος</u>''', ἐφ᾿ ὧν <u>μαρτύρων</u> (Clement)		:Πᾶν ῥῆμα ἵσταται ἐπὶ δύο καὶ '''<u>τριῶν</u>''' '''<u>μαρτύρων</u>''', ἐπὶ '''<u>πατρὸς</u>''' καὶ '''<u>υἱοῦ</u>''' '''<u>καὶ ἁγίου πνεύματος</u>''', ἐφ᾿ ὧν <u>μαρτύρων</u> [[https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0555.tlg005.opp-grc1:13/?highlight](Clement)

	:ὅτι '''<u>τρεῖς</u>''' εἰσιν οἱ '''<u>μαρτυροῦντες</u>''' εν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ '''<u>πατήρ</u>''', ὁ '''<u>λόγος</u>''', '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τὸ '''<u>ἅγιον Πνεῦμα</u>'''· (Beza)		:ὅτι '''<u>τρεῖς</u>''' εἰσιν οἱ '''<u>μαρτυροῦντες</u>''' εν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ '''<u>πατήρ</u>''', ὁ '''<u>λόγος</u>''', '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τὸ '''<u>ἅγιον Πνεῦμα</u>'''· (Beza)

Nick at 08:01, 23 April 2020

2020-04-23T08:01:45Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:01, 23 April 2020
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	:'''<u>Πατρὸς καὶ</u>''' τοῦ '''<u>Υἱοῦ</u>''' '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τοῦ '''<u>Ἁγίου Πνεύματος</u>''' (Beza)		:'''<u>Πατρὸς καὶ</u>''' τοῦ '''<u>Υἱοῦ</u>''' '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τοῦ '''<u>Ἁγίου Πνεύματος</u>''' (Beza)
	:'''<u>πατήρ</u>''', ........ ὁ '''<u>λόγος</u>''', '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τὸ '''<u>ἅγιον Πνεῦμα</u>'''· (Beza - 1 John 5:7)		:'''<u>πατήρ</u>''', ........ ὁ '''<u>λόγος</u>''', '''<u>καὶ</u>''' τὸ '''<u>ἅγιον Πνεῦμα</u>'''· (Beza - 1 John 5:7)

			But, this does not explain why Clement spoke of witnesses twice, in a verse with a clear reference to the Father, Son, and Spirit, with μαρτύρων appearing twice.

	Critics of the Comma claim that is absent from an extant fragment of Clement through [[Cassiodorus]] (6th century), with homily style verse references from 1 John, including verse [[1 John 5:6]] and [[1 John 5:8]] without verse 7, the heavenly witnesses.		Critics of the Comma claim that is absent from an extant fragment of Clement through [[Cassiodorus]] (6th century), with homily style verse references from 1 John, including verse [[1 John 5:6]] and [[1 John 5:8]] without verse 7, the heavenly witnesses.

Nick at 07:27, 23 April 2020

2020-04-23T07:27:53Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:27, 23 April 2020
Line 1:		Line 1:
	[[image:Clement_alexandrin.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria]]		[[image:Clement_alexandrin.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria]]
	[[image:Clement_1_John_5.7.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria with allusions to the Comma Johanneum [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=P2nWxN5XVfYC&pg=PA46&dq=%22before+the+Father+and+the+Son+and+the+Holy+Spirit;+before+whom%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1b-btu_oAhUt63MBHQUjBCoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false].]]		[[image:Clement_1_John_5.7.jpg\|250px\|thumb\|right\|Clement of Alexandria with allusions to the Comma Johanneum [https://books.google.com.au/books?id=P2nWxN5XVfYC&pg=PA46&dq=%22before+the+Father+and+the+Son+and+the+Holy+Spirit;+before+whom%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1b-btu_oAhUt63MBHQUjBCoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q&f=false].]]
	Another reference that is studied is from [[Clement of Alexandria]] (c. 200) in ''Prophetic Extracts'':		Another reference that is studied is from [[Clement of Alexandria]] (c. [[200 AD\|200]]) in ''[http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Greek/testi/Clemens/Eclogae_propheticae.html Prophetic Extracts]'':
	:Every promise is valid before two or '''<u>three witnesses</u>''', before '''<u>the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit</u>'''; before whom, '''<u>as witnesses</u>''' and helpers, what are called the commandments ought to be kept. <small>''Eclogae propheticae 13.1''[https://books.google.com/books?id=GX4UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277 Ben David, Monthly Review, 1826 p. 277)]</small>		:Every promise is valid before two or '''<u>three witnesses</u>''', before '''<u>the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit</u>'''; before whom, '''<u>as witnesses</u>''' and helpers, what are called the commandments ought to be kept. <small>''Eclogae propheticae 13.1''[https://books.google.com/books?id=GX4UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277 Ben David, Monthly Review, 1826 p. 277)]</small>