Hebrews 3:16 - Revision history

Nick at 04:01, 9 November 2024

Nick — Sat, 09 Nov 2024 04:01:17 GMT

←Older revision		Revision as of 04:01, 9 November 2024
Line 1:		Line 1:
-	* '''[[Hebrews 3:16 Greek NT: Beza's Textus Receptus (1598)\|ΠΡΟΣ ΕΒΡΑΙΟΥΣ 3:16]]''' [[5100\|~~Τίνες~~]] [[1063\|γὰρ]] [[191\|ἀκούσαντες]] [[3893\|παρεπίκραναν]], [[235\|ἀλλ']] [[3756\|οὐ]] [[3956\|πάντες]]· [[1831\|ἐξελθόντες]] [[1537\|ἐξ]] [[125\|Αἰγύπτου]] [[1223\|διὰ]] [[3475\|Μωσέως]]. (Checked)	+	* '''[[Hebrews 3:16 Greek NT: Beza's Textus Receptus (1598)\|ΠΡΟΣ ΕΒΡΑΙΟΥΣ 3:16]]''' [[5100\|Tινὲς]] [[1063\|γὰρ]] [[191\|ἀκούσαντες]] [[3893\|παρεπίκραναν]], [[235\|ἀλλ']] [[3756\|οὐ]] [[3956\|πάντες]]· [[1831\|ἐξελθόντες]] [[1537\|ἐξ]] [[125\|Αἰγύπτου]] [[1223\|διὰ]] [[3475\|Μωσέως]]. (Checked)

	{{Textus Receptus 1598 Footer}}		{{Textus Receptus 1598 Footer}}

Nick: /* Romainian */

Nick — Sat, 29 Sep 2018 11:00:33 GMT

Romainian

←Older revision		Revision as of 11:00, 29 September 2018
Line 342:		Line 342:
	====[[Romainian]]====		====[[Romainian]]====

-	* [[~~2010~~ AD\|~~2010~~]] ~~Cine~~ au ~~fost~~, ~~în adevăr, ceice~~ s'au răzvrătit ~~dupăce auziseră? N'au fost oare~~ toţi ~~aceia, cari ieşiseră~~ din Egipt prin Moise? (Biblia Traducerea Fidela în limba româna)	+	* [[2015 AD\|2015]] Fiindcă unii, după ce au auzit, s-au răzvrătit; însă nu toţi care au ieşit din Egipt, prin Moise (Biblia Traducerea Fidela în limba româna)

	====[[Russian]]====		====[[Russian]]====

Nick: /* New King James Version */

Nick — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 18:00:40 GMT

New King James Version

←Older revision		Revision as of 18:00, 12 August 2016
Line 94:		Line 94:
	:Madden objects to the NKJV’s correction of the KJV here because he imagines that the NKJV introduces a contradiction when it says “was it not all who came out of Egypt?” He noted that there were a few exceptions like Joshua and Caleb who didn’t rebel, so not all were involved. However, the author clearly had Numbers 14:2 in mind when he wrote this passage--“And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!” (KJV). The author’s Jewish audience was familiar with that passage and understood that the universal terms “all” and “whole” did not include the small group of believers like Joshua and Caleb. So they also understood that the author’s use of “all” here is not contradictory either.		:Madden objects to the NKJV’s correction of the KJV here because he imagines that the NKJV introduces a contradiction when it says “was it not all who came out of Egypt?” He noted that there were a few exceptions like Joshua and Caleb who didn’t rebel, so not all were involved. However, the author clearly had Numbers 14:2 in mind when he wrote this passage--“And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!” (KJV). The author’s Jewish audience was familiar with that passage and understood that the universal terms “all” and “whole” did not include the small group of believers like Joshua and Caleb. So they also understood that the author’s use of “all” here is not contradictory either.

-	:However, this seems to be a rare exception, perhaps the only place, where the NKJV translators chose not to follow the minority reading of the Textus Receptus (TR). To the best of my knowledge, in all the other places the NKJV translators followed the TR, even when the TR reading was not supported by the majority of copies, sometimes by a very small number, or by no Greek authority at all. I can’t give the reason for this exception, unless they understood the KJV rendering to be inconsistent with the author’s line of reasoning. The KJV certainly seems to be inconsistent here, because the author obviously was focusing of the judgment that came on all of the congregation--the 40 years in the wilderness, and the exclusion from God’s rest--not on the very few who survived.	+	:However, this seems to be a rare exception, perhaps the only place, where the NKJV translators chose not to follow the minority reading of the Textus Receptus (TR). To the best of my knowledge, in all the other places the NKJV translators followed the TR, even when the TR reading was not supported by the majority of copies, sometimes by a very small number, or by no Greek authority at all. I can’t give the reason for this exception, unless they understood the KJV rendering to be inconsistent with the author’s line of reasoning. The KJV certainly seems to be inconsistent here, because the author obviously was focusing of the judgment that came on all of the congregation--the 40 years in the wilderness, and the exclusion from God’s rest--not on the very few who survived. [http://www.kjvonly.org/jamesp/jdprice_book_madden.htm]

	====Modern English Version====		====Modern English Version====

Nick: /* Steven Avery */

Nick — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 18:00:03 GMT

Steven Avery

←Older revision		Revision as of 18:00, 12 August 2016
Line 75:		Line 75:
	http://books.google.com/books?id=bGwsKmDfnCoC&pg=PA83		http://books.google.com/books?id=bGwsKmDfnCoC&pg=PA83

-	Romans 3:3 - It is to be remarked that "some" in the original signifies a part of the whole, but not necessarily a small part of it. It may be a very great part and majority of the whole, — as in Hebrews iii. 16, where it is said, " Some when they heard provoked, howbeit not all that came out of Egypt with Moses." All did provoke God on that occasion except Joshua and Caleb, and those who were still too young to bear arms. (Chalmers) - (end of notes by Steven Avery)	+	:Romans 3:3 - It is to be remarked that "some" in the original signifies a part of the whole, but not necessarily a small part of it. It may be a very great part and majority of the whole, — as in Hebrews iii. 16, where it is said, " Some when they heard provoked, howbeit not all that came out of Egypt with Moses." All did provoke God on that occasion except Joshua and Caleb, and those who were still too young to bear arms. (Chalmers) - (end of notes by Steven Avery)

	====Scrivener====		====Scrivener====

Nick: /* =Steven Avery */

Nick — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 17:59:13 GMT

=Steven Avery

←Older revision		Revision as of 17:59, 12 August 2016
Line 18:		Line 18:
	The children, women, elderly men (unable to go to war), and possibly even all of the Levites (they were not numbered for war - Numbers 1:47) who came out of Egypt (therefore numbering more than the fighting men as a whole by estimation) are not included in the group who provoked God and didn't believe Him. (Numbers 14:29, Deuteronomy 2:14) That is why the Hebrews 3:16 is quite accurate to say "some" and then to describe who those "some" were.		The children, women, elderly men (unable to go to war), and possibly even all of the Levites (they were not numbered for war - Numbers 1:47) who came out of Egypt (therefore numbering more than the fighting men as a whole by estimation) are not included in the group who provoked God and didn't believe Him. (Numbers 14:29, Deuteronomy 2:14) That is why the Hebrews 3:16 is quite accurate to say "some" and then to describe who those "some" were.

-	====Steven Avery===	+	====Steven Avery====
	Steven Avery has done a lot of research on this verse and has found the following information.		Steven Avery has done a lot of research on this verse and has found the following information.

Nick: /* Commentary */

Nick — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 17:58:58 GMT

Commentary

←Older revision		Revision as of 17:58, 12 August 2016
Line 13:		Line 13:

	==Commentary==		==Commentary==
		+	====Will Kinney====
		+	Notice that this is a statement in the King James Bible. Not everyone provoked God, but some did. Caleb and Joshua did believe God and the thousands of children from 20 years old and under did enter the promised land. It was only the grown men ages 20-up who were able to go to war (Numbers 1:3), numbering 603,548 (Numbers 1:46 minus Joshua and Caleb), who rejected God's command and died in the wilderness.
		+
		+	The children, women, elderly men (unable to go to war), and possibly even all of the Levites (they were not numbered for war - Numbers 1:47) who came out of Egypt (therefore numbering more than the fighting men as a whole by estimation) are not included in the group who provoked God and didn't believe Him. (Numbers 14:29, Deuteronomy 2:14) That is why the Hebrews 3:16 is quite accurate to say "some" and then to describe who those "some" were.
		+
		+	====Steven Avery===
		+	Steven Avery has done a lot of research on this verse and has found the following information.
		+
		+	LATIN EVIDENCES - OLD LATIN & VULGATE & REFORMATION BIBLES
		+
		+	Avery writes: "First I think it is helpful to emphasize that the Rheims NT seems to be representing the full Old Latin and Latin manuscript evidence, 100% like the Reformation Bible. No Latin variants of significance having been referenced from :
		+
		+	Rheims - “For some who heard did provoke: but not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.”
		+
		+	http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/Vulgate/Hebrews.html
		+
		+	quidam enim audientes exacerbaverunt sed non universi qui profecti sunt ab Aegypto per Mosen
		+
		+	As mentioned above, this is the Old Latin (Itala) line of 200 AD as well as the Vulgate translation of Jerome utilizing Latin and Greek ('the fountainhead' - Jerome) manuscripts in 400 AD. This solidifies the fact that these ancient translators and scholars, knowing the language much closer to the NT time, understood the uncial Greek as did the Reformation scholars much later. Thus the value of this evidence can be properly emphasized, against the modernists who tend to simply place it on ignore. Here is the early English translation from the Latin.
		+
		+	Wycliffe (1395) - “For some men hearing wrathed, but not all they that went out of Egypt by Moses.”
		+
		+	Beza's Latin translation - Nam quidam, quum audissent, exacerbarunt [Domine]: non omnes tamen ii qui exierunt ex AEgypto per Mosen.
		+
		+	Calvin's Latin translation Quidam enim quum audissent, exacerbarunt; at non omnes qui egressi fuerant ex AEgypto per Mosen. (used in his commentaries)
		+
		+	OTHER EARLY TEXT-LINES
		+
		+	B. W. Johnson, in the People's New Testament is another who did not mangle this meaning of the verse and gave commentary in synch with the verse.
		+
		+	“For some, when they had heard, did provoke. Some in the wilderness heard God, but refused to listen, and did not provoke him. Howbeit not all.” * There were a few exceptions; Joshua and Caleb, Eliezer, and perhaps some more of the Levites.
		+
		+	PESHITTA
		+
		+	Similarly Lamsa from the Syriac. Note that also the two other main Peshitta translators, while using a question, also do not reverse the verse meaning. As is done by the NKJV and the modern versions.
		+
		+	Murdock - “But who were they that heard, and angered him ? It was not all they, who came out of Egypt under Moses. “
		+
		+	Etheridge- “For who are they who heard and provoked him ? Not all they who came out of Metsreen by the hand of Musha. “
		+
		+	Lamsa - “Who are those who have heard and provoked him? Were they not those who came out of Egypt under Moses, although not all of them? “
		+
		+	All the Syriac translators line up with the meaning of the Reformation Bible against the Westcott-Hort deformed version juggernaut which rolled over the NKJV. A good guideline with the Bible text is Reformed over deformed.
		+
		+	Here are a couple of additional fine commentaries.
		+
		+	An Exposition of Hebrews - Christ Superior to Moses. - Arthur Pink (1886-1952)
		+
		+	:"For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses" (verse 16). The apostle here begins to describe the kind of persons who sinned in the provocation, amplification being given in what follows. His purpose in making mention of these persons was to more fully evidence the need for Christian watchfulness against hardness of heart, even because those who of old yielded thereto provoked God to their ruin. The opening "for" gives point to what has preceded. The unspeakably solemn fact to which He here refers is that out of six hundred thousand men who left Egypt, but two of them were cut off in the wilderness, Caleb and Joshua.
		+
		+	Thomas Chalmers (1780- 1847)
		+
		+	http://books.google.com/books?id=4l0PAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA342
		+
		+	:And let me not be insensible to the call of "to-day," that I may no longer postpone the good work either of faith or of repentance. Let it be remarked that "some" might signify a small or a very large proportion of the whole. It is said that some, howbeit not all, who came out of Egypt by Moses did provoke God : certainly not all — for both Caleb and Joshua were faithful, and got both an entry and an inheritance in the land of Canaan. Let them be examples to us, that we may shine as lights in the midst of a perverse and crooked generation.
		+
		+	Interestingly Edwin Gifford used the Hebrews verse as part of his interpretation of Romans, which led to the excellent Thomas Chalmers section above.
		+
		+	The Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans By Edwin Hamilton Gifford
		+
		+	http://books.google.com/books?id=bGwsKmDfnCoC&pg=PA83
		+
		+	Romans 3:3 - It is to be remarked that "some" in the original signifies a part of the whole, but not necessarily a small part of it. It may be a very great part and majority of the whole, — as in Hebrews iii. 16, where it is said, " Some when they heard provoked, howbeit not all that came out of Egypt with Moses." All did provoke God on that occasion except Joshua and Caleb, and those who were still too young to bear arms. (Chalmers) - (end of notes by Steven Avery)
		+
	====Scrivener====		====Scrivener====
	Scriveners text adds οἱ before ἐξελθόντες		Scriveners text adds οἱ before ἐξελθόντες

Nick at 17:51, 12 August 2016

Nick — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 17:51:26 GMT

←Older revision		Revision as of 17:51, 12 August 2016
Line 22:		Line 22:
	The KJV clearly says that "some" i.e. most of the older generation of Israel, "howbeit not all" meaning Joshua and Caleb, "did provoke." The NKJV says that everyone who came out of Egypt rebelled. This is clearly mistranslated and ruins the basic Old Testament historical narrative.		The KJV clearly says that "some" i.e. most of the older generation of Israel, "howbeit not all" meaning Joshua and Caleb, "did provoke." The NKJV says that everyone who came out of Egypt rebelled. This is clearly mistranslated and ruins the basic Old Testament historical narrative.

-	[[NKJV]] translator [[James Price]] said:	+	[[NKJV]] translator [[James Price]] said concerning the critical book review of the NKJV by D. K. Madden :

	“Who Rebelled?”		“Who Rebelled?”

Nick: /* New King James Version */

Nick — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 17:49:13 GMT

New King James Version

←Older revision		Revision as of 17:49, 12 August 2016
Line 21:		Line 21:

	The KJV clearly says that "some" i.e. most of the older generation of Israel, "howbeit not all" meaning Joshua and Caleb, "did provoke." The NKJV says that everyone who came out of Egypt rebelled. This is clearly mistranslated and ruins the basic Old Testament historical narrative.		The KJV clearly says that "some" i.e. most of the older generation of Israel, "howbeit not all" meaning Joshua and Caleb, "did provoke." The NKJV says that everyone who came out of Egypt rebelled. This is clearly mistranslated and ruins the basic Old Testament historical narrative.
		+
		+	[[NKJV]] translator [[James Price]] said:
		+
		+	“Who Rebelled?”
		+	(Hebrews 3:16)
		+	:Madden condemned the NKJV for rendering this passage “For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?” The issue hinges on the accent mark on the Greek word tines, whether it is on the first syllable (ti) or on the last (nes). With the accent on the first syllable, the word is the interrogative pronoun “who?” as in the NKJV; with it on the last syllable, the word is the indefinite pronoun “some” as in the KJV. Madden knows that the accent marks were not part of the autographic text nor of the earlier copies of the Greek Bible, including the early copies of the Bibles in the Byzantine tradition. Thus the accent mark on this word is an interpretive addition to the text that is not part of the original. Madden should also know that most of the Bibles in the Byzantine tradition have the accent on the first syllable, not the last. That is the case in the Hodges-Farstad Majority Text, and also in the Robinson-Pierpont text. This is also true in F. H. A. Scrivener’s edition of Stephen’s 1550 text. This means that the majority of Greek speaking churches understood the text the way the NKJV translated it. Likewise, the context favors the interrogative pronoun in this case because this rhetorical question is followed by two others in the succeeding verses.
		+
		+	:Madden objects to the NKJV’s correction of the KJV here because he imagines that the NKJV introduces a contradiction when it says “was it not all who came out of Egypt?” He noted that there were a few exceptions like Joshua and Caleb who didn’t rebel, so not all were involved. However, the author clearly had Numbers 14:2 in mind when he wrote this passage--“And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!” (KJV). The author’s Jewish audience was familiar with that passage and understood that the universal terms “all” and “whole” did not include the small group of believers like Joshua and Caleb. So they also understood that the author’s use of “all” here is not contradictory either.
		+
		+	:However, this seems to be a rare exception, perhaps the only place, where the NKJV translators chose not to follow the minority reading of the Textus Receptus (TR). To the best of my knowledge, in all the other places the NKJV translators followed the TR, even when the TR reading was not supported by the majority of copies, sometimes by a very small number, or by no Greek authority at all. I can’t give the reason for this exception, unless they understood the KJV rendering to be inconsistent with the author’s line of reasoning. The KJV certainly seems to be inconsistent here, because the author obviously was focusing of the judgment that came on all of the congregation--the 40 years in the wilderness, and the exclusion from God’s rest--not on the very few who survived.

	====Modern English Version====		====Modern English Version====

Nick: /* James Price */

Nick — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 17:46:49 GMT

James Price

←Older revision		Revision as of 17:46, 12 August 2016
Line 296:		Line 296:
	* [[1934 AD\|1934]] Vả, ai là kẻ nghe tiếng Ngài rồi nổi loạn, há chẳng phải những người nhờ Môi-se dẫn ra khỏi xứ Ê-díp-tô sao? (VIET)		* [[1934 AD\|1934]] Vả, ai là kẻ nghe tiếng Ngài rồi nổi loạn, há chẳng phải những người nhờ Môi-se dẫn ra khỏi xứ Ê-díp-tô sao? (VIET)

-	~~==James Price==~~

-	~~James Price said:~~
-
-	~~“Who Rebelled?”~~
-	~~(Hebrews 3:16)~~
-	:Madden condemned the NKJV for rendering this passage “For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?” The issue hinges on the accent mark on the Greek word tines, whether it is on the first syllable (ti) or on the last (nes). With the accent on the first syllable, the word is the interrogative pronoun “who?” as in the NKJV; with it on the last syllable, the word is the indefinite pronoun “some” as in the KJV. Madden knows that the accent marks were not part of the autographic text nor of the earlier copies of the Greek Bible, including the early copies of the Bibles in the Byzantine tradition. Thus the accent mark on this word is an interpretive addition to the text that is not part of the original. Madden should also know that most of the Bibles in the Byzantine tradition have the accent on the first syllable, not the last. That is the case in the Hodges-Farstad Majority Text, and also in the Robinson-Pierpont text. This is also true in F. H. A. Scrivener’s edition of Stephen’s 1550 text. This means that the majority of Greek speaking churches understood the text the way the NKJV translated it. Likewise, the context favors the interrogative pronoun in this case because this rhetorical question is followed by two others in the succeeding verses.
-
-	:Madden objects to the NKJV’s correction of the KJV here because he imagines that the NKJV introduces a contradiction when it says “was it not all who came out of Egypt?” He noted that there were a few exceptions like Joshua and Caleb who didn’t rebel, so not all were involved. However, the author clearly had Numbers 14:2 in mind when he wrote this passage--“And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!” (KJV). The author’s Jewish audience was familiar with that passage and understood that the universal terms “all” and “whole” did not include the small group of believers like Joshua and Caleb. So they also understood that the author’s use of “all” here is not contradictory either.
-
-	:However, this seems to be a rare exception, perhaps the only place, where the NKJV translators chose not to follow the minority reading of the Textus Receptus (TR). To the best of my knowledge, in all the other places the NKJV translators followed the TR, even when the TR reading was not supported by the majority of copies, sometimes by a very small number, or by no Greek authority at all. I can’t give the reason for this exception, unless they understood the KJV rendering to be inconsistent with the author’s line of reasoning. The KJV certainly seems to be inconsistent here, because the author obviously was focusing of the judgment that came on all of the congregation--the 40 years in the wilderness, and the exclusion from God’s rest--not on the very few who survived.

	==See Also==		==See Also==

Nick: /* Modern English Version */

Nick — Fri, 12 Aug 2016 17:45:35 GMT

Modern English Version

←Older revision		Revision as of 17:45, 12 August 2016
Line 24:		Line 24:
	====Modern English Version====		====Modern English Version====

-	In Hebrews 3:16 the MEV changes the wording of the KJV from a statement to a question:	+	In Hebrews 3:16 the MEV followes the NKJV and changes the wording of the KJV from a statement to a question:
	:"for who were they who heard and rebelled? Was it not all of those who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?"		:"for who were they who heard and rebelled? Was it not all of those who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?"